Peter Yared has a wealth of experience as an entrepreneur. Not only has he built and sold six different B2B enterprise companies (making more than $500 million in exits), but he’s also lived through three different recessions and managed to stay afloat through them all.
In this conversation with our CEO Nathan Chan, Yared dives deep into the world of software businesses and takes us through his process of coming up with an idea, turning it into a company, and successfully selling it. He also explains the most important lessons from the three previous recessions he’s lived through, as well as what he’s learned during the current pandemic.
Whether you’re an engineer who wants to step into the world of entrepreneurship or a business owner who is struggling with the impact of Covid-19, this episode is jam-packed with helpful knowledge!
If there’s any other type of content you’d like to see that would be valuable to you during this time, please don’t hesitate to reach out at [email protected]
Nathan: The first question that I ask everyone that comes on is, how did you get your job?
Peter: My job where I’m at right now?
Nathan: Yeah, how’d you find yourself doing the work you’re doing today?
Peter: It’s funny, when I was nine or 10 years old. I’m older so this was in like 1979, I ran into my first computer which was an Apple II at my school. I was living in Vienna, Austria, it was in Europe, and just immediately fell in love with computers and programming them. And so for fun I coded games, utilities, things like that on a variety of computers, Apple II’s, Sinclairs, Commodores. I was lucky that my parents bought me a computer a year or two after that, a Commodore VIC-20, which had three and a half K of RAM, and a 6510 MOS processor. I learned basic, and assembly, and just had a tonne of fun programming computers, and that’s how I fell into it.
Nathan: What was your first company, because you’ve built and sold six B2B enterprise companies, B2B SaaS enterprise companies?
Peter: Exactly. Well, there wasn’t SAS back then so they weren’t all SAS. I programmed over the years, and then even in high school I was starting to do it professionally where people paid me to build systems. At that point I was living near Washington, DC, so I was doing government systems professionally through high school and college. A friend of mine turned me onto this small talk visual language called Prograph in the early 90s, and we both loved this language. And then, we were using this client server package on the Macintosh called 4D and we were like, “Wouldn’t it be great if this Prograph System had something like that?” So built a full client server development environment and deployment environment on top of this existing package. The company that published it really liked it so they published my software on top of theirs, and then eventually bought out the licence to the software after that. So that was my first project, and I sold it.
It was back in the days where one person could build something competitive all by themselves, so it was just me, a little bit of support from the publisher. I sold it and that was the first one, but it was funny because in 1995 I went to Apple’s Worldwide developer conference. Back then they used to have a European one and it was in Stockholm. I run into this guy from Symantec and he told me all about Java. And I was like, “Well, isn’t Java just the Duke guy juggling balls?” Back then it was just for the browser. And he goes, “No, it’s actually a real language. You should look into it.” I flew home from Stockholm, downloaded the Java Development Kit, and I was like, “Oh, my God, this language is amazing.” And then I created a client server environment for that. That’s something that helps you connect Java applications to databases and quickly make, first it was full GUI Java apps, and then HTML apps as well. And you got to imagine this is 95 and 96, before the whole internet boom went through. Those are the first two projects.
Nathan: Yeah, I see. In your career, building and selling six software companies is a pretty impressive feat. Have you always built companies to sell them?
Peter: I always start these things because they’re fun. The reality of the software business is everybody gets bought at some point even after they go public. Somebody writes a big enough check, like just today ThousandEyes sold to Cisco for a billion dollars. I think it’s because of the distribution side on enterprise, which is it’s hard to be a long-term independent company. You can see companies even like Slack and Zoom are going through this because the incumbents are coming after them hard.
I never build them to sell them, I built them to build them. Sometimes there’s just a natural life to certain projects and companies. Some of these companies we ran out of money and I had to sell them in a jiffy because our investors pulled the rug out from under us, or the market shifted, things like that. So it’s not always a gravy train. But when you build a good product with good technology and a good team around it, you can always find a good home at a reasonable price for the company. And other ones that are doing a lot better, and other ones that are more than that.
Nathan: What has been your most successful exit, if you don’t mind sharing? If you can’t, that’s okay too.
Peter: Well, we’ve had two that were big one. That Company I was just telling you about, that Java one, we sold it to NetDynamics in 1998 … I’m sorry, 97′. And then the technology behind that became the basis for that Dynamic’s future product, which was pure Java based. We went and showed it to Sun Microsystems, and then Sun Microsystems bought the company in 98′ for $235 million. And then a year later, their stock went up 13X, so everybody made a lot of money on that. We had investors that actually held the stock for a year, but it was a massive outcome for them. Because it was a free.com, right at the inflexion point where everyone’s stock went boom. And then last year, actually a year and a half ago, we sold a company called Sapho that I started back in 2014. We sold it to Citrix, which is actually doing quite well right now because they specialise in remote work. We sold it to Citrix for $225 million. Their stock has subsequently gone up like 50% so the people that held it, well.
Nathan: Yeah, well. Have you held?
Peter: Some, yes. At Sun I did quite well after we sold that Dynamics to them. Citrix no, I sold immediately. I was only there for six weeks. Sometimes the way stock is structured, you do have to sell it to cover the taxes. But my co founder is still there, he did very well, I’m very psyched for him.
Nathan: Yeah, well. Okay. And always in the enterprise space?
That’s when I first found Pinterest, because Pinterest was the only other system that laid stuff out in blocks like that, which was now a very familiar view. We launched this thing and it was on … and CNN. We got all these calls from brands going, “This is really cool, we’d like to add something to our homepage with the social posts that we’ve done about shoes at Nine West.” And stuff like that, so it was pretty funny. Sports teams started using it when you’re like, “Take a picture and add a hashtag.” And then we had a dashboard where you could curate it and put it on the jumbo screen. We really had a lot of fun with that project and it ended up getting acquired by Sprinklr, which is a big, unicorn, social media type of a tools company.
Nathan: I see. I find it interesting, when you talk about each company, you talk about them as projects. Is that how you always see new businesses, new business opportunities? Because I think when you talk … when you describe it as a project, it sounds more fun.
Peter: Yes, because what’s the point of doing it if it’s not fun? And sometimes not all projects become companies. I remember in the early 2000s I was building computers, they’re called shuttles now. Back then they were called an Intel nuke. And then was cobbling together a interaction Media Centre on top of it, and I just had fun. I could pick out my media, I could set up file servers, I built my own UI for it. That did not turn into a business, but it was still a fun project. One thing I’ve learned, because now I’m on my seventh one is, a big part of companies is timing. Sometimes the timing is right, sometimes the time is wrong. One VC said years ago, “Early is wrong.” One of the things I like to do is tinker with something, and then when the time is right, that’s when you turn it into a company.
Nathan: Does that mean you might have many projects going at one time?
Peter: Or interest or ideas that you’re fleshing out and playing with and maybe building a little prototype around. But it may not be real there, the market may shift, companies may enter that market. One thing I’ve learned is you have to be part of a trend, and the trend has to be an exciting trend. I’ve been fortunate because I was part of the client server trend, then I was part of the internet trend, then I was part of the open source trend in the early 2000s. Then I was part of the social trend on two sides, first social publishing with Transpond where we had NBC and CVS, and people like that, and Universal Music Group, Lady Gaga as customers. And then on the aggregation side, was the next project after that. Which is people want to put it all together, put it on their website with Post-post which became Postano.
At Sapho we were part of the employee experience track. Which is employees came to work, like millennials, people your age would come at a job somewhere and then they’re expected to learn how to use crappy SAP systems and even mainframes through a terminal, and they’re like, “This is terrible.” We put this beautiful layer on top of everything and made it really simple and easy to use all these wacky systems. The companies didn’t have to replace their old systems, but they can provide a new UI very securely. That was actually a very timely thing because it was right at the point where millennials were 50%, 60%, some companies it’s 80% of their workforce. The current company, the trend we’re based on is data regulation. I had the idea three and a half, four years ago, and now it’s top of mind.
Nathan: Yeah, I know. That’s cool. I think that’s a really interesting takeaway, is timing and during a trend. How do you know when the timing is right though? You don’t want to be too early.
Peter: You don’t want to be too early, and even I have done felt some … Sapho, actually, we are a year or two too early on it. It took a while for that to mature. It’s like catching a wave when you’re surfing, you have to know when that undertow is enough, that it’s going to come and tip right over. I’m using a surfing analogy because you’re Australian. I hate to make fun of cultures, but that’s what you guys are known for. But really, it’s having that fidelity, and his is why I like to have them as side projects and projects. Because then you’re not compelled to build a company around it until you know that there’s … it has legs under it.
Nathan: And then once it has legs or you can say that the trend is starting to come, is that when you go out and raise VC? Because I know you’re based in San Fran, that’s the desert typical playbook. B2B SaaS enterprise, that’s a very expensive model.
Peter: My last four projects, …, Postano. No, my last five projects were actually self-funded initially.
Peter: Because it’s hard to raise money if you don’t have something that works end-to-end. If I come to you and I’m like, “Hey, I have this great idea, give me some money.” That’s one conversation versus, “Hey, I have this great idea and I built software that actually works. You can play with it, and test it, and look at it, and we’re going to go have some other people look at it and start using it. Do you want to invest in that?” You’re much farther along, and it doesn’t take much to make something work end-to-end. This is actually a teaching that I try to share with a lot of younger engineers, and they just don’t get it because they think they have to build the perfect system, always. And every little bit of it has to be perfect. When in fact, the beauty of software, it’s not like building a skyscraper.
You can build the top floor of the skyscraper without having foundations that drill all the way into 30 feet underground, you know what I mean? And you can have something that kind of works end-to-end. Does it scale? No. Is it highly secure? No. But you can get the ideas out there, see what people think, get feedback, show it to potential investors. And then start filling in stuff behind it because it’s virtual, it’s software. It’s not buildings or bridges.
Nathan: Yeah, that’s interesting. Because one thing I’ve noticed in my, I guess, short career as a founder, I’ve been doing this for six, seven, years now, and created two companies. Nothing beats a product that’s just easy to sell. When it’s a grind, it’s just so much harder to get traction. But if you just create the product and you just see for the first time it’s so easy to sell. And when I say easy, it just feels quite effortless and people understand the problem that it’s solving. It just goes, and it just makes everything so much easier. That’s what you’ve got to look for, from my experience thus far. What is your take there?
Peter: I totally agree, and that’s also described as push versus pull selling. Are you going around and knocking on 10 doors and trying to convince somebody that they need something? First you have to convince them that they have the problem, then you have to convince them that you’re the right solution, on, and on, and on. Or, if you knock on 10 doors, and eight of the people are like, “Oh, my God, we have this problem. Thank you for bringing us the solution.” And even if it’s not perfect, they’re willing to tell you what’s wrong with it, da da da da. A much better value problem and mental sanity at a startup experience. Right?
Nathan: Yeah. It’s a big, big thing in Silicon Valley, you guys are pro product versus pro marketing. You’re still pro marketing but fundamentally best product wins, that’s your school thought?
Peter: Absolutely not.
Peter: No. The better product loses all the time, especially against incumbents. Because a lot of people buy the same thing, and da da da da da. And the people that take shortcuts on their product or in the market before you and selling it, and then they backfill. So I have lost to inferior products. Like, when I was doing Transpond, Buddy Media was an inferior product. They used to come to our website all the time, because you could do tracking and copy our features, and da da da da da. We were way ahead of them, but that doesn’t mean you’re going to win. If they have better relationships, better channels, better partnerships, a worst product can win.
Nathan: Yeah, well. That’s interesting your take because you know what I’m talking about, because this is what a lot of guys at Silicon … guys and girls at Silicon Valley say. You disagree?
Peter: I disagree, because I’ve seen it not work out that way. I’m sure when you look at it, you’ve seen it work out that way where the product that’s foundationally better or fundamentally better doesn’t always win. You see it all the time.
Nathan: When you’re starting these companies, what are you focused on to win if you know that it might not be the better product? Because you’re an engineer by trade, typically, when you start companies you’re really like the Steve Wozniak CTO, CIO? Right?
Peter: Well, yeah, but there’s two sides of it. Because hacking a market and how to sell to a market is a very engineering task. Who’s buying it, why, where’s the interest? What’s the key features that people care about? How long does it take to get in there? Who are you talking to? What is the system of people that need to agree inside a company to buy your product? If it’s 10 people in 10 different teams, you’re screwed. You know what I mean? If it’s one key buyer that has the influence to convince InfoSec and the other teams that they have to do it, then you’re in a much better place. But to your question, I usually start on stuff because I think something’s interesting. As I get older, I’m starting to realise the stuff that I think is interesting, generally, is the beginning of a trend. If I think five things are interesting and I’m tracking those five things, one of them is eventually going to start getting flagged as a real trend. And then you have to go, “Okay, I have something that works end-to-end in this space. Who wants to buy it? Why do they want to buy it? Where’s the biggest pain point?”
And then you have to play the startup game which is, when you’re a nobody, Chevron is not buying your software. Bank of America is not saying, “Yeah, come on in. I’m going to buy software from you.” Sometimes you have to go find the smaller customers and then crawl up the value chain, and then other times you’re in a space like where we are right now. We store regulated data at InCountry, so we are built to store regulated data for banks, and healthcare providers, and people like that. There aren’t any small ones, there’s no small banks. And so, we have to build up the technology, and the credibility, and the external audits and stuff such that people feel comfortable with us. There’s this whole game and if you take an engineering perspective to the go-to market and make it very mechanical, very predictable, it actually works pretty well.
Nathan: Yeah, well. Interesting. I’ve never done enterprise before so I’ve no experience selling to that market, but what I do know is it’s really long lead times. ‘
Peter: Yeah. People buy Slack immediately, they just put in their credit card. Talk about an Australian company, Atlassian, is usually pulled in by an engineer somewhere, puts in the credit card, and boom, they’re using it. Those are the dream, is you’re selling to other businesses but it’s a very pull based model. People find you, they can start small and you start to grow organically within the organisation. That’s the dream, but it’s very small number of … finite number of applications where you can do it that way. Usually, you are doing some type of typical, we’re going to do some marketing, we’re going to try to attract people, or we’re going to do outbound sales to a particular role. Then we’re going to see what it takes to qualify, whether it’s real or not at that account, we don’t waste time on it.
And then we go sell and then you learn over time, when I sell to financial services, to the director application security, the deals move fast. There’s a government deal that actually needs 10 buy ins, that one’s going to move slow. So you start to measure this kind of stuff, about what works and what doesn’t. One of the big tricks to enterprise software sales is figuring out who’s going to buy, why, why they care, and then finding more of that person.
Nathan: What is the process, you just find those people through LinkedIn and reach out cold?
Peter: Sometimes, yes. Hopefully, you have a network of people you can go to, you have friends that will try it out, give you some feedback. But, eventually, you’re going to find this is exactly who I want at this type of company and this type of region. And then you reach out cold on LinkedIn, you do email campaigns, you do marketing campaigns, you buy lists. You try to offer something that’s interesting to people, you try not to bug them too much. This thing about I’m going to send you an email, and then another email, and then this is the last email I’m ever going to send you. Enough already. And try to be helpful to people, hey, we ran into a new article about data regulations in Australia we thought you might be interested in. You’re not going to ever be their friend, but you also don’t want to be the annoying nag, so my advice is be the helpful neighbour.
Sometimes helpful neighbours are annoying, but a lot of times it’s like, “Hey, Nathan, I know that you do these podcasts and I heard about this great software that fixes audio quality. Check this out.” Or, “Hey, here’s an article or some data on where podcasts are growing the most, especially ones for startups.” And it’s Southeast Asia, because it’s booming there. Vietnam has a tonne of startups and that’s where this . You’re like, “That was actually helpful to me.”
Nathan: So sell first, ask later?
Peter: Yeah, you got to give a little bit. You can’t always just be take, take, take.
Nathan: Yeah, because I’ve never done enterprise but it scares me, to be honest. Because, to be honest, Peter, when you mentioned Slack or Atlassian, we’re a small business and we pay for Confluence, we pay for Slack. But when I say enterprise I’m talking not small business, not mid market, but big business enterprise, like you said, Bank of America. I’ve never sold to those kind of companies, that would scare me, to be honest.
Peter: It still scares me to this day. I’m in it right now and I’m like, “Oh my God, are we going to close this deal?” Because it becomes very unpredictable. These places are constantly reorging so you lose your key champion, or stuff gets caught up in legal because they have other priorities. Which has happened to us even this quarter because everyone has a COVID project that they have to jam through and it goes right to the top of the list. We’ve had deals drag out now for like three months because, all of a sudden, that company has to accelerate a bunch of remote work bids. So they now need to bring in Zoom, Zscaler, Citrix, this, that and that. So all of a sudden, in the space of two weeks they need to go off and negotiate with five different vendors, go through all their SLAs, their data processing agreements, their contracts, blah blah blah blah.
That is the number one priority, so your deal is going behind all of those. That’s been the biggest COVID impact to us. Not that our market disappeared, which I’m glad that did not happen because it happened to some people like in travel and such. But that other things became a bigger priority all of a sudden.
Nathan: Can you talk more about your experience with COVID, and anyone selling to enterprise, what have you done to counteract or get a respond as a company to keep building remote sustainability?
Peter: One, we’re lucky in that we’re a global company, so we sell worldwide. For example, end of January, it was very clear that our Asian business was going to implode, and it was half our pipeline. We had an early sign and we actually did cost cutting at the beginning of February to prepare for this. And we focused our energies on the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, UAE, places like that. you know. We were lucky because first Asian imploded, the Middle East had basically a small speed bump. They just shut down flights and told everyone to stay home. And business just kept kind of moving a little slower, but it kept moving. And then Europe completely froze, and then North America completely froze, but we kept the Middle East moving business moving forward through all of this. One of those deals I’m talking about was a U.S. deal that we came to terms in January, February, on that we still haven’t signed. Because, all of a sudden, that company has to go off and bring in 10 other ….
But that’s how we prepared for it, is we got early signal, we prepped for it, and then, we just kept the team cohesive. You just let people know, “Hey, we’re here for you if you have kids that are no longer in school and stuff.” We have to be accommodating, our number one focus is to keep everyone’s jobs going here. Even , “Why don’t we hire so and so?” I’m like, “Because my job is not to hire new people, my job right now is to keep your job at your current pace scale.” And that’s how you survive these things.
Nathan: So you’ve been through recessions before?
Peter: Yes. Yep, many of them. Early 90s, dotcom bust, global financial crisis.
Nathan: Does it feel the same?
Peter: It’s interesting because I’m not quite clear if this one’s going to be a depression, recession, great recession, or if it’s going to be a disaster recovery. Because here in the U.S. you’ll have a hurricane slam into Florida and nothing happened … every business there shut down for three weeks. And then, two or three weeks after that, boom, they’re all back. You can see that happening in places like Florida and Georgia where they were only shut down for four or five weeks, these are U.S. states. Versus, here in San Francisco they just said … they just had the announcement today that fitness studios can open again in mid August. That’s five months, five months for a yoga studio, or a CrossFit gym, or a pilates studio to be shut down. I just don’t know how they survive. You know what I mean?
It’s a mix because for the places that shut down for a short amount of time, I think you will see a bit of a V-shaped recovery. And that for the ones that did not, it’s going to be a disaster. Right?
Nathan: Yeah. Do you have a playbook every time this has happened?
Peter: Yeah, which is you got to hunker down, you have to cockroach through it like a nuclear winter, and then you have to figure out where your opportunities are. And for us, we have had … we’re one of these rare businesses that that COVID has been good for. Because, our primary sectors are financial services, health care, rest of the world. Middle East, Asia, places like that, and they all got caught. If you’re a bank in some random country, and all sudden you can’t say, “Well, come on down to the branch and let’s have a conversation about it.” Everything had to move online, and the way things move online is by using best of breed cloud vendors. But you’re not allowed to run Salesforce, or Mambu, or Zendesk, if all your banking data needs to be in Vietnam, or Saudi Arabia, or Indonesia.
That’s where we come in, we’re the glue that lets you take those regulated bits out. So all of a sudden, every bank, healthcare provider, even government agency now, all of a sudden, realise, “Oh, my gosh, we have to get online as fast as possible. Because this thing could be another wave, there could be another one of these things. We suck, we have to fix this.” And we’re part of the fix it solution, right?
Nathan: Yeah, I see? What about churn?
Peter: It’s when you sell deep enterprise, churn is rare. It’s not monthly churn like these little SaaS companies, it’s usually a two to three month implementation cycle, and one to three year contracts. Usually the only way you’re getting churned out in the short-term is if you completely fail, violate your SLA’s, get breached, things like that.
Nathan: Yeah, that’s why a lot of B2B SaaS small business, B2B SaaS or even mid market, it’s longer lead times but more quality customers.
Peter: Yeah. For the ones that are selling by the month SaaS, they got … the small business, they got screwed hard. And it’s a tough business. Look, let’s be realistic, small businesses are just getting hammered. And you can see it because here in America, I don’t know about Australia, but Walmart was open, and Target was open. Whole Foods was open, but if you have a flower shop right next to Whole Foods, you are not allowed to be open. But Whole Foods is open, including their flower shop area. Basically, we said big business all the way, small business, you’re screwed. In this rapacious, capitalistic, sort of system, it’s hard to be a small business.
Nathan: It’s funny you mentioned Whole Foods, I spoke to John this week, founder, and he said they’re not making profit.
Peter: Well, they were in a tough position anyway making profit.
Nathan: You know what I mean, you would have thought … I said, “It’s boom time for you guys, right? And he’s like, “No, we’re just keeping everybody around and we’re breaking even. There’s some categories that are doing well, but we have to spend all this money on masks. For 100,000 employees, we’ve got to spend money on masks, we’ve got to spend money on cleaning, we’ve got to spend money on sanitising.” He said the supply chain issues. I was really surprised because you look at these businesses and you’re like, “Oh, wow. Okay.” I sell a physical product that solves this need, or I’m a supermarket or whatever. I find it very surprising.
Peter: Yeah. Look, they’re in a tough spot because they only saw groceries, primarily. But the folks that are selling other stuff like Target had an excuse to stay open, and they kept their clothing section open and everything. Same with Home Depot, they’re still selling appliances and da da da da. Some of these folks actually did really well. Whole Foods, maybe they’ll breakeven, but that flower store after a five months shutdown is never coming back. All right? Or if they do, it’s not going to be in California. They’re going to move to Texas or something. It’s been a very unique time, because you … it’s like the survival of the fittest, if you will. I like to call it the corona acceleration, which is like we just got fast-forwarded 10 years into the future. How was that flower shop going to do 10 years from now? Probably not well, so it is fascinating moment in time. Yoga studio versus workout at home, will …? And the trend is already happening.
Nathan: Yeah. What do you think’s going to happen?
Peter: With what, with this coronavirus situation?
Nathan: Yeah, with small business, the economy? Like I said, you’ve been through, you mentioned, three of these kind of recessions? Because, I think, they say that the coronavirus was just clouding a looming recession. It was going to happen anyways, just the coronavirus gave it a reason.
Peter: What do I think? I don’t know, man. The markets are back because the Fed published and printed enough money to make it happen in the U.S. I think the Europeans just did the same thing, the ECB just put out a three quarter trillion euro stimulus. So they’re just going to print money through this thing. I think certain businesses are going to fall by the wayside, but then others are going to do really well. I think patterns are being set now to buy stuff online, not go into stores, which was already a trend that was happening anyway. That kind of stuff is getting accelerated. Like I said, I think in some sectors we’re going to see a V-shape recovery, and other ones no. Right?
Nathan: Yeah, no, I see. It’s interesting. Peter, we have to work towards wrapping up. This was a really great conversation and we covered a lot of diverse topics. I have two more questions for you. Question number one is, where’s the best place people can find out more about yourself and InCountry, and your work? And then the last question is, do you have any words of wisdom or parting pieces that you’d like to share?
Peter: Find out more, there’s incountry.com, spelled as you would expect. And then my Twitter is Peter Yared, Y-A-R-E-D, and LinkedIn is the same. We’re always posting interesting articles about the space and such. Then I also have all the articles I’ve written over almost past 20 years on Y-A-R-E-D.com, yared.com. All of us old guys got our last names as domains in the early days, … my thoughts on a variety of stuff. I apologise. Words of wisdom, we’ve kind of covered them, but it’s pretty simple because catching trends actually is not that hard. You can always find the outlier wacky people, what are they all doing? They’re all moving to Surrey to set up cafes. Great, start investing in buildings there. You know what I mean, it’s like the trends actually are not that complicated. Somebody said years ago that on the trends, it’s a cycle of unbundling and re bundling.
You can even see it in the internet because the early days the internet, it was like AOL, CompuServe, sites like that. Then it went to any website, and now it’s Facebook, Twitter, you know what I mean? So it’s probably going to have to get unbundled. If you catch those trends, just look for them. And then, have an idea, tinker with the idea, build an end-to-end prototype, see what’s happening. See if it has a little bit of traction, and then and only then actually dedicate your life to it. It wouldn’t be my advice, that’s the playbook. It’s not the only playbook for doing a company, but it’s my playbook for doing a company and not being miserable.
Nathan: Yeah, amazing. Well, look, Peter, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. You’re very, very, giving with all of your experiences shared. Look, I hope you and your family stay safe in San Francisco. Thank you so much.
Peter: Thanks so much for having me on, and I super appreciate it. Great questions and great energy, so thank you.